Category: Getting to Know You
The first thing that I'll say is that I never felt myself to be an American. Even in my childhood, I felt like an outsider, but didn't know where I belonged. My interest in Greek things started 11 years ago, in my junior year of high school, when Mrs. Kottas, the first (Greek woman) I'd ever known, gave me a tape of laika from the 60's. At that point, I didn't even know how to say geia sou! (hello) A year later, I found a station called Rembetika on live365.com. I was drawn to a certain singer and after awhile, I discovered that his name was Markos Vamvakaris. I eventually bought Bouzouki Pioneer that featured him and then Vassilis Tsitsanis 1936-1946. I learned about the manges and rebetika, collecting more music along the way. I then bought a bouzouki, first a tetrachordo (that's all I could find) and then a trichordo. In the meantime, I wanted to learn the language. It took me several years to find Greek screen reading software, but I eventually did and started learning from kypros.org. My original intent was to be able to translate rebetika, but Koutsavakika (mangiko) is so difficult that I just decided to stick with the standard forms.
In college, something else found me. Religion. My family was never the church-going type, but as a child, Mom wanted me to have my first communion. But the local church (and several others) rejected me because of my blindness. So Mom told me to follow my heart. For 11 years, I had no religion. Then, in December of 2002, I stumbled across Hellenic Polytheism while looking up something else Greek. By February of 2003, I'd become a Hellenic Polytheist. That said, I don't hate Christians at all and was the one who chose to go to a Jesuit college because of their love of education. I'm even a member of a theology group on Facebook where Christianity is often discussed. But I wanted to keep the ancient separate from the modern. I also had a deep love for my english heritage and was trying to learn more about it. I thought that this was where I fit in. But all the time, my love of all things Hellenic kept growing and so did my disappointment in British politics, to the point that I lost all of my interest in them. This is when I knew that it was merely a cultural thing and not real patriotism. Finally, in June of 2006, five years after that first introduction, I broke down and pledged my undying loyalty to and love for Ellada and no other country. On 12 June,, 2006, my mother found a letter that we thought was from my biological father (Mom adopted me) saying that I was Greek but we weren't really sure if it was from him or about me. In August of 2009, my brother Adam found our father Chet. It was then that I learned that, while I have a few extra ethnicities, I have no Greek bloodat all. But by that point, I didn't need it, because I already knew deep inside of me that I was, and still am, an Ellinida. I love Ellada through good and bad, and would give my life for Her if necessary. She is sacred and eternal, and it's my belief that we must preserve Her for future generations. I also feel more comfortable around Greeks than any other group, including my blind peers.
In 2010 or so, I began learning about The Revolution of 21st April, 1967, so another chapter of my life began. I started taking a great interest in the work of our national saviours, and as I listened to the inspiring speeches of Colonel Papadopoulos, two things were clear. First, he was the best speaker of the modern language in our history. Second, without translation, I had no clue what he was saying! But each time I heard him, my heart cried out to learn more so that I could speak as well as him. So began the long and frustrating search for a teacher who could take me through the rest of Dimotiki, the informal language used by everyone, and into Katharevousa, the formal language which he used.
And that's how it all started and why I am the way I am. There are times when I think it's strange, as I'm sure many others do, and there are times when my patriotism causes me pain, as I watch the destruction of the nation I love while living in the one in which I was born. But over all, I wouldn't trade it for anything!
Hello.
I said this in the past but i will say it again.
I admire a lot your love for Greece and the Greek calture. There are people who live in Greece and Cyprus but don't have the feeling that you have and they wouldn't give their lives for their country.
But i disagree with you about the 21st of April 1967.
These 7 years were in my oppinion the worst years in Greek history.
Greece was under dictatorship during these 7 years and dimocracy didn't exist then. Greece was the first country to introduce democracy and Papadopoulos and the others who followed him almost distroyed the country.
As a result of this dictatorship we had in 1974 the invation of the 38 percent of Cyprus by Turkey which still exists untill now.
I am not the best in history and i don't know all the facts but i am sure that you wouldn't want to live in Greece between 1967 untill 1974. You wouldn't want people to tell you what to believe, what music to compose or listen etc.
Everything then was monitored by these people and if they didn't like an album, a theatrical play, a book etc they wouldn't let it to be pubblished.
I don't want to imagine what their oppinion was about dissabled people.
I would advice you to try and find information about this period of Greece from both sights and not only from Papadopoulos point of view.
Personally i wouldn't call them national saviours but distroyers instead.
Anyway despite our disagreement i wish you to visit Greece one day and all your dreams to become true.
Nikos
The leaders of The Revolution actually saved the nation, particularly economically. As a matter of fact, we were the fastest growing nation in Europe at the time, and it was termed an economic miracle. Schools, airports, roads, hospitals, hotels,, the military museum and more were all built then, and plumbing and electricity were brought to places which still didn't have them. They were also the ones who started socialised education through the university level. I won't quote from this, since it's quite long, but pay close attention to D and 11 through 15. Mostly, these deal with the economic side of things.
http://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1969-76v29/d314 "
This is another link, written in Greek, with wonderful charts and explanations of the economic miracle seen during The 21 April Revolution. It's from Stoxos, before they began leaning towards Xrysi Avgi.
http://www.hellas.org/april21/economy.htm
It's also worth noting that, several decades earlier, during the 4th of August Regime, many things were put into place which are so basic that no one in their right mind would doubt their necessity.
"from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_of_August_Regime
"Metaxas' government, initially unpopular, also gained popularity through an elaborate program to socialize the Greek economy, including:
• introduction of a minimum wage;
• unemployment insurance and the creation of a public employment agency;
• maternity leave;
• a 5-day, 40-hour workweek;
• guaranteed 2-week vacations with pay (or two weeks' double pay in place of the vacation);
• stricter work safety standards.
Many elements of this program persist in Greek economic policy. Metaxas' regime also founded the Social Security Institute (IKA) as well as the Workers' Center, which was established to look after workers' housing and recreation, among other things.
The 4th of August regime also initially stabilized the drachma (later replaced by the euro), which had been suffering from high inflation. Exploiting the newfound solidity of the currency, Metaxas' government embarked on large public works programs, including land drainage, construction of railways, road improvements, and modernization of the telecommunications infrastructure.'"
Back to 21 April, though, the horrible events in Kypros took place after the traitor, Dimitrios Ioannidis, overthrew Colonel Papadopoulos. But as much as i despise the former, he was not the only one responsible for what happened there. America also shares the blame, as they promised that they wouldn't let the Turks in, and then did just that.
There are times when certain rights need to be either stripped or modified, and this is particularly true during military rule. So while I wouldn't be thrilled, I would also understand the need for many of these laws, at least until things calmed down and democratic rule could begin to be restored once mor.
Thanks for wishing me well. It's good to know that we can disagree on things but still be friends.
I have to say this, just because you like Greece, doesn't mean you're Greek. I like the thinking of the founding fathers, it doesn't make me one of them. Yes, you can emigrate to Greece, and become a Greek citizen, but that doesn't make you Greek.
My family is Greek, and there is a herritage that cannot be gleened from listeninng to some old speakers and eating stuffed grapeleaves.
As for the helenic polytheist thing, I don't even want to think about the lapse in reason which would result in you beeing able to convince yourself that Zeus actually sends lightning from the sky as his weapon, or that Athena disguises herself as people to influence you, or that storms and earthquakes are made by Poseidon stirring up the ocean with his trident, or running his horses over the land respectively. How you can convince yourself that the sun is pulled by a charriot across the sky, or that nymphs cause the trees and flowers to grow, or that sirens and cyclopses exist, I don't even want to begin to fathom. Frankly, ideas that incredibly moronic being taken seriously terrifies me more than people who take the bible literally, and that is saying something.
You're American, you may have a love for Greek culture, and that is wonderful, its a rich and ancient culture, it doesn't mean your greek, or you have anything even approaching Greekness. You're just a fan of Greece. You may have a genetic connection to Greece, but that doesn't make you Greek either. I have a genetic connection to Germany and Ireland, two cultures I adore, it doesn't mean I'm a German or a Celt. You're american, whether you like being so or not.
I agree with you that merely doing superficial things does not make one Greek. It has to be felt in the heart, the soul, and the mind. You're one of the rare Hellenes who disagree with my feelings on the matter. Almost everyone who has made your arguments is American, and it drives me up the wall!
As for Hellenic Polytheism, I must stress to you that there are many different views within the faith. Some take The Gods literally, but many others see Them as symbols, architypes, metaphors, aspects of the one (mostly Neoplatonics on that one) etc. Even most who see The Gods as individual beings, with Their own personalities, don't take the mythoi as literal truth. There is no conflict between Hellenic Polytheism and science, including evolution. I have seen many newagers and eclectics, but also many scholarly debates on our theology, ranging from Homeric, to Neoplatonic, to Orphic, to Hellenistic/syncretic, to modern reconstructionist. Calling a religion moronic is childish at best. No religion can be proven 100%, including mainstream ones. That's why faith exists.
I am American on paper, that much I will admit. I will also say that yes, due to my being brought up in America, I have absorbed some of the culture and ideas of that country. But will you then claim that all Hellenes in the diaspora shouldn't refer to themselves as Hellenes? What about someone born in Ellada who moved to another country when very young? Where do you draw the line?
I must also point out that I have never claimed to be Greek by blood, or to currently be a citizen of Hellas, as both of those statements would be lies. I said that I am a Hellenic patriot and nationalist
very well stated, Cody. couldn't have said it better.
A Helenic nationalist who dismissed out of hand what Nikos had to say.
How could you? He lives over there.
By way of example, I lived in Florida for awhile. Sometimes when I was there, some of the poor people would refer to me as a yankee, or a northern invader.
At first in ignorance I took this as some sort of Southern Bible Belt backwards thing, until an older man, a 3-generations-native explained what was going on:
To them, northern city types represented a threat. Their grandfathers had been forced to sell their farmlands for a pittance, most of which is now under concrete and development, lived upon by retired northern city types. There was a lot more to the story. Anyway the way I had to look at it: they lived there. They were there, I was not. I still don't have an affinity to southern culture - I can't relate to most things of that place, but i am sympathetic to the poor uneducated Floridians who were ousted off their land, no skills except farming, and a couple generations later are still in poverty with terrible schools.
I learned to my shock of a high school with a 66% dropout rate. I didn't know they kept places like that open. Sure, up here, we hear about L.A., the Projects in Chicago, places like that. But this was enlightening. And most of all, they were there. How could I dismiss them out of hand.
You replied to Nikos with a lot of ideology, but he lives there. I just don't see it.
Actually, Nikos lives in Kypros, so his views are naturally shaped by the catastrophe which occurred there in 1974. Still, I have heard this argument from many people. So I was not dismissing it out of hand. In fact, this is why I went through the trouble to point out the good things which occured during both regimes. I would also never say that everything which the colonels did was right or good. They were human, and they made mistakes. There were also times, such as at the Polytechnic, when the military got way out of control, though to be fair, I blame both sides for that fiasco.
As for being considered a foreigner, I have heard, from several natives, that even those who are born there are considered foreigners at various points in their lives. Someone who moves away from his village and then returns is seen as an outsider, even if he just moved to another part of the country! Someone with full Hellenic blood, but who was born in another country is also considered foreign by many. So I certainly can't expect to be accepted by everyone. But most Greeks whom I've come across do see me as one of them. These include not only my friends, but friends of friends who just heard of me! The common thing that I've heard is "you're more Greek than many who live here", and I say this not to brag, but to explain my experience. Very few have rejected me completely. Usually, if someone doesn't see me as an Ellinida, they'll see me as a Philhellene. That said, I would never claim to be a native, or to have firsthand experience in certain areas of Hellenic life or time periods. Even when it comes to The Revolution, I was born in 1983, so even if I was a native, I couldn't claim to know it firsthand. Neither, for that matter, could Nikos, who was born in 1982.
I'm not posting to say your wrong, but I have 2 questions?
1. You said, "In college, something else found me. Religion. My family was never the church-going type, but as a child, Mom wanted me to have my first communion. But the local church (and several others) rejected me because of my blindness" Serious?
2. I know that you are sort of anti black or dark skinned. Okay are you aware that your chosen country is greatly dark skinned?
1. Yes. I'm very serious. Mom called, and a nun actually said "we have 450 students. We can't be worried about a blind one." Mom was shocked and said "excuse me? Does God know about this?" But as I said, I don't hate Christians. I'm actually glad that the nun did what she did, so that I could find The Gods later in life.
2. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm anti black or dark skinned. I'm not. I just wouldn't have sex with a black man. But I wouldn't mind having one as a friend. Greeks are still considered Caucasian.
Okay. Point taken. Smile.
I got this idea from a discussion we were having one night and wondered how you'd really like Greek men knowing the thing I pointed out. Likes are likes. Just wanted to know.
My boyfriend is Greek, and we've been together for five years now. I'm proud of the fact that he looks Greek too. *smile* So no worries.
I can agree on the fundamentalist part. I am glad a fundamentalist Christian school rejected me on account of my blindness as a boy. Then again, their first question was an adult man asking if he could paddle me. Great information to have. I'm glad for the people who rejected me based on what they said was lack of faith. Again, great information to have. I don't see a higher purpose or better calling oe grattitude in all of it.
I look on them like being glad I found a computer virus on my wife's computer, or found a bug in some software at work that I could eradicate. They are no more no less than those things to me.
Of course it reflects on the religion, just as when people do things it may reflect on the blind. How much or how little it reflects on the relgion has everything to do with frequency.
If you visit porn sites or open political emails, your chances of acquiring a computer virus are exponentially higher. Not a persecution of porn or politics, just a statement of fact. I look at the fundamentalist problems the exact same way. It takes a very idealistic and selfish person to do that. Just as it was idealistic and selfish of the animal rights people to destroy the business and livelihood of one of Portland's family businesses, all in the name of what they believed.
People like that are not standing up for their beliefs: they are cowards, pure and simple. And yes, I think you should, and I should, be glad to at least have the information. I'd rather know about a rat infestation so I can deal with it.
No, greeks are not Caucasian, Greece is not even remotely near the caucoses. They are considered mediterranean, which are swarthy and olived skin. And you're still american.
All of your words about the helenistic polytheistic beliefs just told me one thing, you can't even agree on what you believe, which tells me that I can't take your beliefs any more serious than I did before. Which, for the sake of accurate interpretation of my words, is somewhere between believing in faerie tales and thinking that you can confuse evil spirits by pointing your shoes in opposite directions when you go to bed.
Honestly, you sound more like someone who was unhappy with there upbringing, or there environment, so they found one they liked better. You didn't like that your home wasn't perfect, so you picture yourself as a faerie tale princess. You're not cinderella, grow up and stop acting like it. You can love the culture all you want, but that doesn't make you a part of it, and it doesn't make you Greek. It certainly doesn't make you a national.
Why the hell I said Caucasian is beyond me. I think I must be losing it. I told you. I'm American on paper. I'm not even sure why I'm arguing with you. I was accepted by our national saviour, General Pattakos! Why should what anyone else says on the matter bother me? Granted, he doesn't know of my faith, but a Greek Orthodox priest, who is a friend of mine, and who knows the general personally, does, and he has also accepted me as both an Ellinida and aa nationalist (ethnikofron). As for my home life, I had a very good upbringing and love my family, so you're completely wrong on that account. "Whenever you are proposing to take anyone's advice about your affairs, first look to see how he manages his own; for the man of defective judgment in his own business will never give good counsel about that of others." Isocrates (Letter to Demonicus) I wanted to post his quote on being Greek, but need to locate it. Still, I think this will suffice.
Having different branches of faith doesn't mean that religion is invalid. Christianity, for example, has many varieties. So while you may personally believe this, and while I respect it as your opinion, it does not make it true. I think the key here is respect. Most Hellenes do respect my views, particularly when they see how seriously I take them.
I admit that it's quite strange that I, who was born in America, so passionately and exclusively love Greece. This is even more true because I haven't been there and lack the blood. But I do know that it's real, and there is nothing I wouldn't do for Ellada. I think the difference between me, and say, the Philhellenes who fought alongside the Greeks in the War of Independence, in 1821, is that they didn't feel themselves to be Hellenes and were fighting for a romanticised ideal of what the nation could be, based on ancient works. I know that I romanticise, but I also work within a modern framework, and unlike them, I am only loyal to Greece. They went back to their native lands once victory was achieved. Many today may enjoy Hellenic history and culture (mostly ancient), or some modern food and music. Some may even work or live there. But when it comes down to it, again, they don't consider themselves a part of the culture etc.
That said, there are things that I cannot claim, and I wouldn't do so. I can't talk about living there with firsthand experience, and say that I have assimilated into the culture, because I haven't had the chance to completely emerse myself in it. But I know what it's like to feel hope, worry, anger, frustration, and a mix of emotions that are difficult to put into words, but that I wouldn't wish on any decent person. I know what it's like to live in the country in which I was born, while helplessly watching the one I love destroy itself. I know what it's like to have a roof over my head and food on the table, and then to read about people in Greece committing suicide because they don't want to eat out of the garbage, or because they lost their pentions. I know what it is to cry myself to sleep, to fear civil war, to pray for the military to save us, and to wonder how far things must go before they do, then to somehow find the strength to continue, if only to help spread hope to others. But despite all of that, I wouldn't change a thing about my patriotism.
"She is the home of my religion, my heart, my joys and sadness. She is the birthplace of my soul. For her, I'd give my life. From her, I expect nothing but the peace and completion that only she can give me, acceptance and a place to rest my head at the end of the day and my bones at the end of my life. Having served her in whatever way I can is my only goal." (A post of mine from Facebook.)
Tiffanitsa I find your whole Greek thing weird. I can’t suddenly claim to be a Ukrainian when I’ve never been there. I’m English because I’ve always lived in England and my heritage is also English.
Regarding your religion Tiffanitsa, surely it is unchristian for churches to reject the disabled because of their disabilities. Regarding your apparent ancient Greek religion, I don’t believe you follow it because it is what you believe. You follow it because it is Greek. If it had been German you wouldn’t be interested in it. Surely people should follow religions because they believe their religions are right. Having said that there’s a woman on here who claims to follow Satan. That must surely be an attempt to be cool rather than her genuine beliefs.
I know that girl, and trust me, its not cuz its cool. In fact, most of the people who follow the more unpopular religions don't do it because its cool. Mostly because its not cool. Most people don't like satanists, or atheists. We're mistrusted, or not trusted at all, and often mistaken for each other oddly enough.
I think you're being very unfair in your assumption that she is only following it because it is greek. I think it is a highly questionable religion, and there is a lot wrong with whatever chain of logic led her to believe it is actually true, but I think the same of christianity. You have no evidence for your beliefs, would you say the same of a christian, that they are just believing it because their parents did, or because its cool? Cuz trust me, I know more christians who do that than I do satanists or helenic polytheists.
After reading this, I am afraid I fail to understand why an American wants to be greek. This feeling of not belonging sounds deeply rooted in psychological missteps, probably in childhood. I'm no psychologist but it's all I can come up with.
What I meant by it being cool is not necessarily that it is considered cool by everybody, but that it is considered cool to the sort of person the individual wants to associate with. Something may be cool to them because it’s not cool to others. So for example if an atheist was an atheist because they don’t want to be like everybody else who is Christian, they may still want to be considered cool by atheists, so if Richard Dawkins books were popular with atheists, they may decide that they too should read those books so they can be like the other atheists who have read them. This attitude usually applies more to subculture than religion.
I don’t think it is unfair to assume that Tiffanitsa has only adopted her religion because it is a Greek religion. If it was a German religion, then she wouldn’t have taken much interest in it. Greek culture is what Tiffanitsa was trying to learn more about and was interested in. In her post she says
I, too, am gonna defend Tiff. how can you, senior, claim she follows her religion only cause it's greek? have you ever asked her? I bet not.
since we're discussing religion, I have to mention this. your assumptions about atheists/satanists are utterly disgusting.
But that isn't evidence, its an argument from ignorance. It is entirely possible that she genuinely believes in Helinistic polytheism. You simply don't know. You're saying that because most people do it, and you can't think of a better reason for it, your reason must be the right one. That is called an argument from ignorance, and it doesn't work.
For example, she could just as easily have become Greek Orthodox, which is followed by far more Greeks than polytheism. However, she didn't.
Now, don't get me wrong, I agree with you that she probably is just following it because it is greek, and she has this undying love for all things Greek. I can garrantee you that my great grandmother, now my late great grandmother, would have laughed in her face. Being Greek doesn't mean celebrating the culture, being Greek is a mindset and a way of life which Tifanitsa not only does not show, but cannot possess. She has never been married off for a herd of goats, as many of my great grandmother's friends were, she has never had to flee her homeland for fear of the germans as my great grandmother herself did. Tifanitsa knows a culture, the culture that is written about and spoken about, she follows politics and studies it from the outside. She may claim to be Greek, and have a wish to be on the inside, but that does not make her greek.
I often wish I were a Celt, because I love the culture, but I'm not, and never will be. I firmly believe that tifanitsa is simply dissatisfied with the culture she is in, for whatever reason, and is finding one that looks good on paper. I'd love for her to go live in a Greek village, where you practically starve just to get by and sleep with the goats in the winters to keep from freezing, and then tell us how much she likes being Greek. She likes the Greek idea, she isn't greek.
However, my agreement with you does not mean that we have evidence to support it. Just because some people think its cool to rebel, does not mean everyone does. And trust me, I don't know a single atheist who does it because its cool. None of the ones I know, and I know hundreds to one extent or another, have ever said how cool it is to be Atheist. I've held girls as they wept because they were riddiculed by their families. I've watched men weep because they were disowned. I've personally been exercised by my family, and called a devil worshipper by my own grandmother, and a whole extent of other things you can't possibly imagine. Please don't tell me this is a cool life. There's nothing cool about being arbitrarily hated, or told you have no morals, or told that you will burn in hell for eternity. There's nothing cool about that.
Tifanitsa's beliefs may rub entirely against the grain of logic and reason, and I may riddicule them, but I have never assumed why she has them, because to do that cheapens me, and for you to do it cheapens you. If tifanitsa has ever thought I question her reasoning or her actual faith in her beliefs, then I appologize. I will debate her until I'm blue in the face, but never will I deny her the right to have them.
my thoughts, exactly, Cody.
I don't see an issue with Tiffanitsa disassociating herself from American culture if she so chooses. there are a lot of things that I dislike about it too. I've fantasized about what it would be like to pack up and move to another country, looking for something better, even though I know when I stop daydreaming that each and every country has its problems, so it would be no guarantee. There are much unhealthier things she could be doing if she is that unhappy, so while I do think this is an extreme case of envying the greener grass, or what she thinks is the greener grass, I can't in good conscience find it wrong.
Senior, I can respect the fact that you think my feelings towards Greece are "weird"". I have even admitted that they're strange. But when it comes to religion, I would never follow something unless I truly believed in it. If it were as you say, would it not make more sense for me to follow Greek Orthodoxy? After all, it's what most Greeks follow. I never had an interest in religion before becoming a Hellenic Polytheist. I could just as easily have studied the ancient religion and been satisfied as a scholar, if it were not a matter of faith. My interest in The Gods began in childhood, although I only knew of Them through the stories of Persephone, and Arachne, which is how I learned about Athena. My love of weaving, wisdom, and spring/summer stayed with me, and the stories are part of what drew me to the religion. I'm not looking to mix faiths, but if, someday, a German deity should call me, I will need to listen. It's not wise to ignore the gods of any pantheon. Personally, I don't know any Satanists. But I know they exist, and that some of them genuinely believe in their religion, so are not doing it just to be cool.
SilverLightning and happy heart, I never thought I would say this, but thank you for posts 19 and 22. Even though you completely disagree with me on my faith, you still respected and realised that these are my actual beliefs.
Most of the beliefs that I hold about life, and indeed, the afterlife, were developed secularly. So I cannot claim that my values were brought about by my religion. That said, if the ones in my faith were completely or mostly at odds with my own personal beliefs, I couldn't follow this path.
To be fair, SilverLightning, you are right when you say that I don't know the culture from the inside, and some of my ideas are American, do to my upbringing. But most Greeks today haven't been married for a hurd of goats and haven't had to flee their homes. This is a generation which knows riots, much civil unrest, and the fear of poverty and starvation, not because of war, but because of the political and economic situation. The values of the more rural villages may still be very traditional, but I do know that things are changing in the cities, and have been doing so for the last several decades.
as Cody and I've been trying to tell you, Tiff, we're every bit willing to agree with/defend people we otherwise disagree with when we see that it's warranted.
while we both think your beliefs are strange, neither of us would deny your right to have them. we'd never do that to anyone.
Indeed, though for some reason, I find myself a bit concerned about your psychological well-beeing tiff. I do not mean this as an insult in any way mind you.
Hi.
It's good to read all these responses.
Tifanitsa is right. I am not living in Greece but in Cyprus and i am not a history person so i am not claiming that i know all the facts.
Most of my impressions about this period of Greece between 1967 untill 1974 is more bassed on music instead of politics. A lot of artists such us composers, poets, singers etc had to leave from the country during this period because they couldn't freely express themselves. In my oppinion this is not something for a country to be proud off since this is the country that democracy was borned.
Composers like Mickis Theodorakis, Yannis Markopoulos and many others left Greece during this period either because they couldn't express themselves the way they wanted or because they had fears about their lives.
Also there are a lot of people that were torchered because of what they believed. There are plenty of stories about the people in the police putting sigarets on preasoners, hitting the bottom of their feet untill they couldn't walk and many others.
That's why i am glad that Greece is not like that any more and i am glad that i am not living in such country.
Again this doesn't mean that i am right and i admit that i didn't read much about this period but in my oppinion the bad things are much more about the good.
In answer to post 22, I’ve already explained that Tiffanitsa came across the religion she now follows while researching a Greece-related interest, and backed up what I said with a quote from her first post in this thread. I don’t know how others can claim that Tiffanitsa would have adopted her religion, even if it was Nigerian or Korean in origin.
Regarding atheism I have already acknowledged that the situation for atheists in the US is different to that for atheists in the UK. It is possible for something to be cool while not being accepted by others. In fact some things are considered cool because they are not accepted by others.
No Tiffanitsa it wouldn’t make more or less sense for you to follow a different Greek religion to the one you currently follow. Could you explain why you have concluded that all the other belief systems in the world are wrong and the Greek religion you follow is right? I don’t think this is an unfair question. Atheists would say they believe they’re right that God doesn’t exist because they haven’t seen any evidence that he do exist. Agnostics would say they believe they’re right because God’s existence hasn’t been proven or disproven. Christians can usually explain why they believe they’re right too, so why do you think your religion is the right one?
Also Tiffanitsa, am I right that if your religion came from Thailand or Iceland, you wouldn’t currently follow it? If not, can you explain what is wrong with the religions that have come from those countries?
So if she found it while looking for coffee, it would be different? News flash, most of the time you come across things that are similar when looking for similar things. Its why when you look in the library, you find books put in categories. It makes sense that she was studying greece and found a greek religion, she probably found greek music that way too, it doesn't mean she only likes it because she's greek. I found Polish music while looking up things about Poland, I'm not polish, and I love the music; what those people can do with a violin would knock your eyes out.
You giving a quote saying where she found the saying is not evidence toward your claim. You are still making an argument from ignorance.
Besides, what if she is only following it because its greek, its her right to follow whatever she wants, for whatever reason she wants. She could follow it cuz she likes the way the word polytheism sounds. Maybe that word makes her giggle. Who the hell are you to judge someone elses reasons?
Lastly, senior, you and I have butted heads on a lot of religion topics, can you prove why your god is better than others? What proves your god is more real than her god? And no, the old arguments of "well I can feel it", or "the bible says so" do not prove anything. So what makes you so much better than her?
Thank you, SilverLightning, for making that point. Why does it matter that I discovered it while looking up something Greek. The word Hellenic can be applied to many Greek things. Hellenic military, Hellenic organisations, Hellenic language. It just happened that I found Hellenic Polytheism.
I never said that all the other belief systems in the world are wrong" and that only the one I follow is right. It's right for me, because I feel a connection with The Gods, with the ideas, and so on. But I would never tell anyone that they're following "the wrong religion", just because it's not mine. That's not only silly, but downright rude and disrespectful of their faith and feelings.
I know nothing of the religions from Thailand or Iceland, so cannot speak about them. But I can tell you why I don't follow Christianity. The idea of worshipping a single god never really made sense to me, and I could never see Jesus as fully divine, being that He was born of a mortal mother and a divine father. For me, that would make Him a demigod. I also don't agree that homosexuality, safe sex/sex before marriage, and being independent if you're a woman are bad things. Yes, these were also a part of Hellenic Polytheism in ancient times, but most of us don't feel that way today, just as most Jews don't practise arranged marriages today. I could never wrap my head around the idea of a single god, who knows and who does everything, and who has no idea what it's like to be human, to have normal human feelings like sexual desires, love, pain, anger, etc. The gods seem, to me at least, far more human and more able to understand us. Plus, I don't believe in sin, particularly in original sin. Yes, you can do things that are wrong/bad, but you shouldn't feel guilty for every little thing and shouldn't have to tell a human being what you did, if your intention is really to tell the divine. They already know. As for Buddhism etc. while they're interesting, and while I do think that it's important to cut back on materialism and what I term the society of disposability, I don't believe that we need to give up everything we own either.
Well said, Lightning. Honestly I find it odd that a debate about Tiff's reasons for her beliefs even arose when nobody can be inside her mind. It's all just heresay. For what it's worth, Lightning, with regards to some of the ridicule you've shared with us about being an Atheist, I'm sorry to hear you've gone through that. As a Christian I personally don't put stock into anything of the sort that people have said about you. Personality and how one treats others matters; their beliefs do not, unless they negatively impact others.
Tiff, Thank you for sharing this with us. it was very fascinating. It's good that you can so strongly identify with a culture and a people in so much as you understand it, which is a heck of a lot more than I do. I see so many people dissallusioned by individuality and culture in general that, regardless of the how and why, it's a breath of fresh air. I must admit that I am rather curious about Halistic Polytheism, because it's not a belief system I am all too familiar with. I know what I know of it from movies, books and other media. And as a follower of a belief system which has been vastly misrepresented time and time again in the media, I know very well how reliable such sources can be.
I actually just posted one of the best articles that I've ever read on Hellenic Polytheism in the religion board. You and others may enjoy it, or at the very least, learn a bit more about the religion from it. I've also posted a few extra links there, for anyone interested. Note that this is not to prosyletise, as I don't believe in doing that. It's just that certain people were curious, so I provided the resources.
And to Niko, I apologise if it seems that I was ignoring you. I thought your last post was very respectful and well-thought out.
Um, excuse me here Tif, i thought, couple of years ago, you claimed that you are 1-28 Greek or something? Almost every one on zone at that time would have know that you hold very strong believe and very proud of your 1 in 28th heritage... Which made me wonder, what happen to the other 27 of your haritage blood.
Now you are saying that you are not, and never said those before is rather... weird and strange, and in some way, slapping your own face with your own tungue don't you think?
I'm not sure why one can wanting to be someone else so strong, considering you never been to that part of the world before. I think, you can't deny your heritage, doesn't matter if you like it or not. Just like, i'm proud to say i'm an Asian, Chinese heritage, who born in Malaysia, that make me to be a Malaysian Born Chinese, and now i'm an Australian Asian migrance.
One can only deny their true, real, identity for so long. One can only living in a rather ferrie tale world for so long. If One can't have peace with oneself, One's background, and heritage, how can One have peace with others, and the future?
I can't helpp it but the psychologist side of me wonder, why you are so strongly wanting to deny your background as an American, and choose to live in such a ferrie tale. What are you trying to escape from, and escape in to a world of imagination that may not exist?
If she was of greek blood she would be proud of it. However she does not have that bloodline yet she feels a connection.
My sincerest apology, Buttercup. You had every right to question that. I was not trying to be dishonest. I was thinking of the present, and my current debates, in which I never claim that, since I now know better. I had forgotten that I was on here when I did believe that I had some Hellenic blood. It was actually one sixteenth of one percent. *smile* If it helps, this is the part of my essay which explains that. "On 12 June,, 2006, my mother found a letter that we thought was from my biological father (Mom adopted me) saying that I was Greek but we weren't really sure if it was from him or about me. In August of 2009, my brother Adam found our father Chet. It was then that I learned that, while I have a few extra ethnicities, I have no Greek blood at all."
I'm not afraid to admit my actual blood,, which is English, Irish, Croatian, Italian, Polish, Welsh, and a tiny bit of Native American. The last three are the ones which I learned about in 2009. I enjoy stories from Grandma about growing up in Croatia and Italy, and find Native Americans to be interesting. But I don't identify with any of these patriotically, other than liking some of the foods and preferring British diction, grammar, and spelling, as I find them to be more proper than American. Oddly enough, the one time I did mention my Native American blood on here, someone got in my face, basically saying that I shouldn't claim to have the blood just to get things. Apparently, even when people have just a tiny bit of that heritage, they feel they're entitled to things. But I wasn't saying that at all!
As for why I don't consider myself an American, that's also a good question. I wrote about that here, though the thread is now locked. If anyone really wishes to discuss it, I'll repost a fresh one.
http://www.zonebbs.com/boards.php?t=23307
Even though that essay is mostly how I feel about American policies etc. it still explains things a bit. Other than that, I never really took an interest in American culture, history, news, politics, etc. Sure, their inventions are neat, and some of their food is good. I also like their older music, and when they really made products, they were of a high quality. But I don't like globalism, and how they start/involve themselves in wars, and drag other countries into them, nor how they think everyone should be like them. I also don't like how, these days at least, so many have become superficial (malls, reality tv, etc.) and how some, particularly Libertarians, are so incredibly selfish! But I guess those last two exist everywhere. I don't hate them and wouldn't wish them harm. I just can't relate on many levels.